Heart of Herbs Herbal School Podcast
Welcome to the Heart of Herbs Herbal School Podcast, with Demetria Clark.
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Heart of Herbs Herbal School Podcast
Transformative Herbalism: Margie Flint's Journey from Personal Crisis to Herbal Advocate
Join us as we uncover the inspiring path of Margie Flint, an esteemed herbalist who transformed a personal health crisis into a lifelong journey in herbal medicine. Listen to Margie's heartfelt stories about finding her community at the first Gaia Herb Symposium and how influential teachers like Rosemary Gladstar and David Winston shaped her approach. We reflect on the richness of learning from diverse mentors and the importance of integrating varied healing modalities to cultivate a holistic understanding of herbalism.
Words carry power, and in this episode, we explore their impact on our lives and practices. I share a personal tale about teaching empathy, leading to a discussion on the significance of mindful communication in herbalism. We also dive into the evolution of "The Practicing Herbalist," a comprehensive guide that offers practical advice for setting up a practice enriched by expert insights on complex topics like cancer and autoimmune diseases. Discover the innovative use of sous vide technology in tincture preparation, blending modern techniques with traditional wisdom.
The journey through herbalism continues as we discuss creating resources that reflect diversity, including a beautifully illustrated book emphasizing accessible dermatology information for all skin tones. We ponder the future of herbalism and the necessity of passing on knowledge to new generations. Learn about the emerging field of naturopathy and the enduring excitement of our profession. We wrap up with gratitude for shared insights and anticipation for future collaborations, reinforcing the value of continuous learning and transparency in practice.
Heart of Herbs Herbal School
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Hi, this is Demetria Clark from Heart of Herbs Herbal School and the Heart of Herbs Herbal School podcast. I know it's a mouthful. And today we are here with Margie Flint, who I have admired probably since the first time I took a class with you I think it was like in 2002. So very long time ago Well, no, it wasn't that long ago, just the other day. And one of the things that I have always really admired about Margie and her work is that it's very unique, it's individual, but I also feel like it's really really practical. Practical. And the work that she does with reading the body and connecting individuals in their health process and their health path with herbalism, I think is really just super important. So I would love to ask you to just take this opportunity really quickly to just let us know how, how did you get started working as an herbalist, then in practice practicing herbalist and then eventually getting into the, into the book, because I really want to share about the book with everyone how did I get into it?
Speaker 2:well, like most of us, I began by getting sick, and I didn't. I didn't really like the options that were offered to me, which were basically impending death. So I thought I didn't like that at all. So I began a quest, and the short version of that story is I was diagnosed with having a tumor in my pituitary gland and was told I had a year and a half to live. I was 24. Wow, no, I couldn't spinning, and I got into the back of the cab and was driven down Star Drive to my apartment where I lived with my first husband, who was, let's say, um, unkind. So I called my parents and asked if I could come home and they said, yes, of course, we'll make your favorite meal. Not the reaction I was expecting. And so what I did was I basically changed my life entirely. I, um went back to school.
Speaker 2:I was studying in framingham, massachusetts, and there was an herb herb conference locally. That was right there and I was going out with a really handsome guy from a natural food store. So I heard about the conference. It sounded interesting and it was the first Gaia Herb Symposium. Wow, for real. Yeah, wow, a little 4-H camp and there were 65 people, including all the chefs and all the teachers, and when I got there it was like coming home. And when the conference was over you know everyone's holding hands and singing and I basically began sobbing because I didn't want to leave. Oh wow, I had found my place. And who were my teachers? So my first teachers at that conference that I connected with were Rosemary Gladstar and David Winston.
Speaker 2:Oh, two of my favorites Two incredible teachers with very different viewpoints on how to be and how to do, and beautiful, both of them in their very unique ways. So I just began studying and really that's the way I pursued study from then on. I basically got a new teacher about every four years. I would learn and learn and learn, and, you know, hire them to come and teach at my dining room table or go to conferences, whatever it took, and, you know, sit at the knee of the teacher and then, teacher by teacher by teacher, I would, I would add, accumulate knowledge and then from that foundation of teachers, you know the parts that resonated with me became who I was as a practitioner. So you know, I would say I'm an integrated practitioner. You know I do a little Ayurveda, a little Chinese, a little Huna, a little that, and you know I'm eclectic I love that.
Speaker 1:I'm like. I always like joke that I'm like the world's unsexiest herbalist because I'm so practical. I'm like.
Speaker 2:You know, there's all these people like oh, you don't think practical is sexy?
Speaker 1:well, no, to me it's wicked, sexy, right. Like to me it's like I'm the mode, I'm just like so, so practical and stuff. And so when you were talking about David Winston and Rosemary Gladstar, they're both really, really different but they're both super practical too, Like use what works. Come on, man, you know, you know. So I've always like admired that about them and about you and your work, because I just, I mean, you know, I just I like things to make sense without too much thought, I just know. So sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, I'll just be like, oh, I don't really know, like about that. And then I go and look and I'm like, oh, of course that makes sense, that it would work, because this isn't that. And then it makes sense to me.
Speaker 1:But I love the fact that you are talking about studying from a variety of teachers and I think that's important. I think that's one of the most important things, which is, you know people always think is funny, because I've run an herb school since 1998. But I also always tell my students hey, you need to, you know, study. I am not the only person. You should not want that at all. Like no, you need a million different things. So I love that you that you talk about incorporating all different kinds of modalities and thought processes and systems into your healing focus. I think that's really beautiful and I don't think we could say that enough. I think that it's interesting that people always feel like they need to be the expert of everything, and I'd rather be the expert of none, and so I'm going to assume that when you learned all these different ways of working, that you infuse that into your clinical practice working with clients.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean my clinical practice, really that you know, rosemary, of course, david are my first teacher, so they're always going to be a part of me and not apart from me. Oh, I love that. And you know, matthew wood and william lasasie were the next major influence, and I I don't want to leave anyone out I had many, many wonderful teachers. You know Cascade Anderson Geller oh, she was lovely. It just goes on and on. But William, when I studied with William, it was as though the knowledge came in through a funnel on the top of my head and stuck there. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:And you know, I had been exposed to his teachings prior to meeting him, and then I decided I would bring him here to have him teach for me. He had been off the grid for about 10 years. He was a very eccentric man and lived to excess, as many herbalists do, and so I thought, well, I'll bribe him, I'll have him come and teach and I'll just hand all the money to him after expenses. And when he received his check, he looked at it and he just said what this is so much money? I said I want you to teach. And he was like you have been missed by so many people. All these years you haven't been teaching. So I had him come and teach three times before he died.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, and I didn't know he was sick. It's so funny he was teaching diagnosis. Did I see his sickness? No, when we look at our teachers, they're on. You know this magical realm of you know. Oh, they're so perfect and wonderful. No, we're not. You know, all of us have our stuff. Yeah, he was. He had um hepatitis c, oh, wow, okay, yeah, he missed a liver transplant by one day, wow and uh. But I had him come and teach. I had really horrible. I hired somebody to shoot video and they did, but they were so into the class the camera just didn't move oh my goodness oh my really, oh my god oh my goodness, I love that it's.
Speaker 1:That would be something I would do his, uh, his work really is.
Speaker 2:You know I have rosemary and and David and so many other Kate, gilday and many, many other teachers, but William's teaching was wonderful, the magic of my career, oh wow I I did not practice alone, I practiced with the wisdom of my teachers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's true. I think every herbalist needs to acknowledge that, even the ones we don't like or even the ones that we're like that information coming. We learn something so important from that. I think it's really cool that you, you know that you you phrase it like that. I'm gonna have to borrow that you're welcome to it, thank you.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I really believe in is your clients tend to say oh, you healed, blah, blah, blah, and it's like I didn't do. You know, I'm like the crystal ball, I have all the information, I connect to you and I do believe that we, as humans, connect spiritually with each other. We're not disconnected from each other and they're the ones putting the herbs in their mouth and taking them, and you know, making their teas and taking their tinctures and, better still, making their own medicine, which is what I really believe in. But I don't want credit for what I did not do. I shared information, yeah, and I was good at sharing. Did not do I shared information, yeah, and I was good at sharing.
Speaker 2:And I think part of being a good practitioner is understanding how to listen, and for that I honor karen sanders and sarah uh for their teachings at blue water school. I'm not sure they're teaching anymore, anyway. Uh, I'm not sure they're teaching anymore. Anyway, they did a lot of work teaching us how to have healthy boundaries, how to sit and be empty and listen to somebody as they tell their story. You know, in the old days, when I was a young herbalist, if somebody started crying, I'd scoop them up in my lap. You know, my nickname has always been Earth Mama. It's like oh, you know, now I don't do that. You let people have their feeling. If you cross that boundary, they aren't able to do their own growth and their own realization.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I agree with that and it's such a valuable lesson and so many people feel like, oh, but I'm, you know, I'm empathetic and I, you know, I want to be loving and kind. Well, I am loving and kind, but they're their tears. They have to have their own heart revelations and understand where things build up in their body. One of the other great teachers I had was actually a medical doctor. He was the first integrative medicine guy in our neighborhood and alex angelo, and he taught me how to use the timeline. Do you use a timeline?
Speaker 1:I don't know if you define it the same way, so let me. What are you? Why don't you let me in on what you're thinking, okay?
Speaker 2:all right, it's only it's like after the consultation, it's the only paper I ever look at, okay, so, single piece of paper line down the middle. Some people use computers but I'm not that typey um and I'll have you know. If they're 50, I'll have 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 on one side of the line and then the year that corresponds opposite, like if they're born in 1950, it would be 10 years old, 1960, because people remember things in different ways. Yeah, they might remember an event when they were 10 or with when it was the year, and that way you don't have to keep doing math in your head.
Speaker 1:Herbalists, I think, are kind of notoriously not great at math yeah, my family jokes I can only do math if there's a dollar sign in front of it I said inspiration, so the timeline.
Speaker 2:I put everything on there, like what was your birth like? Okay, what were the first thoughts your parents said to you? I wish I had a boy, you know, whatever it is, oh my God, that really impacted me all my life when you lived, what the atmosphere at home was, all the drama and trauma acts car accidents, falling out of trees, deaths, divorces, births, miscarriages, abortions all of that is what I consider to be the pertinent information.
Speaker 1:Oh wow yeah, I do something that's more like a kind of like a I don't know like a mind map, almost like it's similar, but it's like what was you know what was going on in your life at this time period, or you know similar kind of basically the same kind of thing, but a different kind of name and and my stuff is always um, I always like, I doodle and everything is like round and you know, and stuff like that, and I'll have like little illustrations of my thoughts.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know I'm a good one, but I definitely. I like the way that you do that though, because a linear, I do like linear approaches and list and stuff like that on the other side. So I think that's really cool and I love the way you describe that.
Speaker 2:On the round theme, now that I've been distracted, one of David's, one of the things I learned from him that I've never, ever forgotten is there is no comma between body, mind, spirit.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think I remember him saying something about that. Yeah, yeah, yes, well, I mean it's kind of true, right, I mean this whole everything is separate, I think is what really keeps us stumbling in a lot of ways. Absolutely you know, especially with little. You know. If we could start little kids thinking you know from the beginning you're whole and this is, you know different ways we do things, I think that would be really helpful because by the time you're grown up, same theme.
Speaker 2:Words are powerful. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:I remember when my daughter was about nine she had two little friends over standing around the island chit-chatting and I was in the other room and I heard them talking about another little girl, not very nicely, and I went into the room and I said, okay, I'm just going to repeat what I just heard, but I want you to imagine that these words are about you. And I repeated it a little bit of it, and I said, ok, is this the way you want people to talk about you and do you want to be thought of as somebody who talks this way? And I just walked out of the room.
Speaker 1:That's heavy that's a mom moment, right. Like anybody who's a mama knows that kind of moment, right? Oh, wow, yeah, we do we forget how important language is? I think nowadays we're. So I what was it I was saying the other day? It feels like we are so fast to show our anger and our angst and to let the whole world know that we have it, that instead of just like holding back and letting the situation finish before we go on our rampage. And I think we do that with our bodies too, because I feel like sometimes there's an all or one solution, there's everyone is out there being like do this and everything's going to be fine. And, as your book has displayed over the years that it's more than that. So can you tell us about your very, very beautiful manual on being a practicing herbalist? Because that book that I mean seriously that book is like how many pages is it now?
Speaker 1:I think it's looks like what five 550.
Speaker 2:And then it goes on the index, lots of pages.
Speaker 1:That is, this book has so much information. So what is the exact title, so everyone can get their hands on it?
Speaker 2:The Preclin Herbalist. All right, this is the fourth edition and you can get it on my website. I don't know if you put that up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I will, but let's say it out loud so it'll be in the transcripts Earth.
Speaker 2:Song Herbals and you can buy it on the website, and you know some people like to have it inscribed. If you're in virginia, I will be there, but, um, if you want it inscribed, you have to order it through me personally and then that's margie flint 117, my lucky, at gmailcom. Okay, cool, and that way I'll inscribe it and ship it to you.
Speaker 1:Oh, awesome. And we like to encourage all of our listeners to go directly to the source when ordering something, because that is how you know exactly where it's coming from.
Speaker 2:Except in Europe. I don't really have another dealer.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just chose not to do that Because I, like I, wanted to make all the money myself. Yeah, I don't blame you.
Speaker 1:Oh, look at that. I love that. It's so well illustrated. I just remember the first time I got it I think it was from you at like a conference or something, and I just remember just sitting and just going through I was like this is invaluable and that's why it's on our book list as suggested books for our clinical students, because there's just so much information. What inspired you to put this all together?
Speaker 2:Oh, what a perfect segue, my lover at the time, young bill, um. He said, um, I was working on the book, it took nine years to write it, wow. And he said well, you should begin it with your own story of how you became an herbalist and that way people will understand that no matter who they are, they can be an herbalist. You know, there isn't any one right background to be an herbalist. You can have many backgrounds, which I thought was really funny, um, and it is a great part of the book. You know it's quite blatantly honest about. You know who I am and you know marriages and all that. You know I'm not great at everything. It's so human. So anyway, there's that. But I wanted to teach people how to set up a practice, because when I was young we didn't have like business courses for herbalists. And you know how to set up QuickBooks and how to use a computer, for goodness sake.
Speaker 1:I mean, oh no, I know, my first website I had to do myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I used to do all my accounting on a ledger the old fashioned way, and I had to learn how to use a computer and do all that stuff. And you know people laugh and say, oh my God, you're 74. You're better at the computer than I am and I'm like, right on, it's a necessary part of your practice. It is, you know, and inventory and all that sort of thing. So the book covers very practical concepts of how to run a small business, how to do an intake, why you ask the questions you ask and what are the 10 questions that might follow the answer to that question, little vignettes of stories, of client stuff, um, in between. So we have the intake and then we I have. You know, every practice has certain issues that come up again and again. So my practice was heavily cancer ridden. Oh, okay, yeah, so I had a lot on cancer and I had my revered teachers David Winston and Wendy Fogg. Oh no, she was in the Lyme chapter. So Lyme cancer, autoimmune disease, you know, sort of the things that were most common in my practice. I would write about.
Speaker 2:And in this edition I have a little bit of mummy pride with my son. Gabriel is a really fabulous chef and restaurant owner in Hawaii and he asked me if I would come and teach him how to make bitters. So I had a great time making bitters and at the end I said okay, so we'll shake them and pray. We'll put them on a shelf for two weeks. He goes no, mom, they'll be done in four hours. I said what? So? This is a sous vide. You can have your tinctures done in four hours. You can spend your time praying for those four hours if you want, but the taste will be much more true to the plant. And I was like, holy moly, you know from my baby. It's so cool boy, my little 42 year old baby. I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that we, I love the, that herbalism is one of those professions that requires you to keep learning and to be flexible, because technology changes and if you don't stay with the technology on some level, you could be missing out on something really fabulous. Like I really resisted all of the infusion machines, like the magic butter and all that. I was like, oh, I'm not gonna, not gonna really do that, that's not, that's not my thing. And then I was like, well, my students are wanting to know more about it. I need to learn more about it and even though it's still not my favorite thing, it's a good thing that I know how to use it and I know what it does and how it works and all that kind of stuff. So I think it's cool that you're you're getting to learn and experience this growth with your son, which I think is really beautiful. I can't wait for my boys to have a question.
Speaker 2:When you have students, you will learn from your students too. Oh, absolutely, Absolutely, I mean. I hope so. I don't ever want to think I know everything. The more I know, the more I feel like, oh my God, I have so much to learn.
Speaker 1:I always tell my students that I think that with wellness, the wellness industry right, it's very easy for the disciple mentality to you know present itself and that teachers can fall into that trap oh yeah, you've got to be really careful that you don't take advantage of that relationship with your clients who are like you helped me have a baby? No, I didn't help you have a baby. I suggested some herbs. You ended up getting pregnant. We're working together, but that baby's not mine. I have no responsibility for that.
Speaker 2:I do think I had baby magic and I might actually believe that if I rub against someone they'll get pregnant.
Speaker 1:I love that well when you were talking about coming into contact with different things I just like. For about five years I felt like almost every single person that came into my practice was trying to get pregnant and I was just like always that way.
Speaker 1:And you know, and then it would be something else, so autoimmune disorders or skin issue and you're just kind of like and I tell students that's normal. Yeah, you know, like I also train birth workers and I'm like, look, just because you have three C-sections in a row, or three this in a row doesn't mean this is all you're ever going to see. Life just happens sometimes like that. And so I love that you touched on that, because it is true in herbal practice that sometimes you become the person known for whatever for a little while.
Speaker 2:And you're like I didn't ask for this, yep, but it is. I really think it is the, the universe, you know, the, the intelligence of all that gives you those cases again and again and again, so that you get really good at it yeah, that's a nice way to put it, that that's a really beautiful way to put it.
Speaker 1:I feel like I feel like the industry is one that is so complex and gorgeous and interesting and I really want to keep looking at it that way, instead of everything being distilled down to one or two things you know, like you can only use this herb for this and I'm like no, okay let's break that mentality here.
Speaker 2:Years and years ago, Brooke Medicine Eagle said be careful, the planet is changing and when the planet changes, the uses of the plants change.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, of course. What a beautiful statement, but that makes so much sense. Yes, stay awake, because I mean, even flowers will do things in that season to attract what they need just for that moment right, things in that season to attract what they need just for that moment, right. So why wouldn't plant kingdoms also? You know, change and evolve like we do as human beings. Very cool statement. So you're teaching in west virginia, correct? And where else are you going to be this year? People want to check you out.
Speaker 2:I'll be teaching in Arkansas Boy, I would have to look on my own website to tell you where.
Speaker 1:But it's all there, all the info is there, it's all on my website, okay, cool.
Speaker 2:And then I have the legacy training course. So I'm trying to train, I am training teachers. I have been for years now to carry on the tradition of the LaSassier diagnostics the face, tongue and nail diagnostics that William teaches, which is the foundation of the book as well, because I've had enough near death experiences in the last few years to realize I better get this done. Oh, yeah, right, I'm teaching every other month here in my own home and I have five bedrooms. So there's, you know, possibilities for people to stay here and training them to be teachers. And I would, you know, in an ideal world world, have them kind of splattered across the universe so that there's somebody in Canada and somebody in each country and each state that can teach it, you know. And and then you know, if anyone's interested in that, they can write to me and I'll send them all the requirements and what you get at the end and what you have to do to get there.
Speaker 1:All right, that's awesome, that's really awesome. I think that it's cool that you are thinking about things in reference to forever change, which I think training people to do that kind of work is forever change, because then they can train people and and it's something that obviously we've lost in our modern world, but we're getting diagnostics in this book.
Speaker 2:Have no time. Yeah, you know it is, it's true.
Speaker 2:They're beautiful, it's good forever and it's so well it's I, it's so well illustrated and it's so matt wood and I detailed, oh awesome well it, matthew wood and I met in various coffee shops across the country and we'd sit and I'd say, well, I think the lips go this way. Oh, I think they're. Oh, yeah, I know it goes this way. And we work it out until we had it perfect. And I think line drawings are so much easier to interpret. When you see pictures, I don't know, it's harder to really say this is what we're looking for, but with a line drawing it's really simple I think that's, and I also think line drawings lend itself to.
Speaker 1:You know more than one skin tone, so a lot of dermatology textbooks are only. Caucasian skin and it's like hang on a sec.
Speaker 2:There is a fabulous book out.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have it, the one with the dermatology?
Speaker 2:Yes, shoot, I can't remember the name of it, but I think you were just saying it.
Speaker 1:uh, no, uh, shoot. I can't remember the name of it, but I think you were just saying it. That's the dermatology textbook.
Speaker 2:That's okay, this one, you know. I always said I should write one for people with dark skin. I don't have to, it's already been written. Oh, that's awesome, oh awesome book?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, cause it's always have to get that awesome book? Yeah well, because it's. It is so different and we need to acknowledge that and help people in some ways. Yes, yes, well, but the way rashes and stuff present can be different.
Speaker 2:That's awesome I mean he, this book is in sex positions.
Speaker 1:Hello, hello who knew we were gonna to take a turn?
Speaker 2:This is. I just can't tell you what a wonderful book this is. So I don't need to write one on dark skin people because I really don't have the experience. I live in pasty white land. Yeah, I've had dark skin clients, but it's you know, melanin, the tone of skin, the everything can be a little different.
Speaker 1:The basic lines are the same though. Yeah, well, that's what I was. That's that's what I was about, what you were saying, because it's true. I mean I'm very fortunate. I've lived in the South for a long time, so I've worked with, with clients from all over the spectrum of being as pink as me to being very, very dark, and there is a difference, and sometimes just having the line drawing can really make things easier. Or you can say to your client do you identify with something that you see? And you can show them imagery and they can say, yes, this is what this feels like to me and I love that. And I love that your books are accessible and easy to use and so detailed.
Speaker 2:Well, I think between these two you got it all.
Speaker 1:Well, I will not disagree with you on that. So, how do you feel about the future of herbalism? And then I will, probably. We're getting close to the end of our time. I know you have an appointment, so but um, uh, how do you feel about the future of herbalism?
Speaker 2:I well. Herbs are our ancestors. No matter what we do as humans, the herbs will survive. No matter what we do as humans, the herbs will survive. Herbalism I have great faith in. I believe, first of all, that this is the most exciting job. You will never be bored. You will never be bored. Every day is a new adventure. Practical skills will help you survive it and actually make money. But the future of herbalism, I am not concerned about myself. I mean I I stopped seeing clients and I still get calls every day of somebody wanting to see me. It's very hard to say no, but I really want to have trained. You know, there are plenty of young herbalists who can certainly handle the new clients. And as my daughter Sarah, who's so wise said mom, you learned how to resolve issues around cancer because you saw one client at a time. Your herbalists will also learn the same way.
Speaker 1:You have some very wise children over there. I'm telling you yeah, I have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. I'm very grateful for my kids.
Speaker 1:That's very awesome. That's definitely, I think, good advice. Sometimes one at a time, one step at a time, one person at a time, one song at a time.
Speaker 2:Do you know who Tori Hudson is? The name sounds she's a naturopath in the West Coast and years ago she was at the Women's Herbal. So she's a lesbian. She had on Rosemary Gladstar's very foofy, wafty dress which in itself was hysterical and she got up there and she said naturopathy is a new medicine. When people call and they say have you treated Hashimoto's? And you've only seen one client, you can say, in my experience, blah, blah, blah, you've seen two. You can say time, blah, you've seen two. You can say time after time. Of course I would just say I haven't seen anyone. But I'm willing to try. I'll do the research before you come and I'll do the best I can.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Oh, that's wonderful, that's absolutely wonderful. So I wanted to say thank you for spending time with us today. I really appreciate it. I was a little nervous because I was just so excited, so hopefully I wasn't too rude and didn't talk over you too much. I've just really enjoyed this.
Speaker 1:So thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be with us today and, um, I'd love to check in with you sometime, or, or, um, if you have a new edition of the book coming out, you know, always let us know, or anything like that. Or, and we'll make sure people know how to get it, um, because I think it's I just think it's an important read and I think everyone needs to read it. So thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, you have a great day. Thanks, all right, bye.
