Heart of Herbs Herbal School Podcast
Welcome to the Heart of Herbs Herbal School Podcast, with Demetria Clark.
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Heart of Herbs Herbal School Podcast
Exploring the Art of Engaging Herbal Education
Join us as seasoned herbal educator jim mcdonald shares his incredible journey from budding herbal enthusiast to international teacher. His passion for herbalism began in 1994, leading him to teach across various settings, including creating his course, Lindera. You'll gain insight into the evolving landscape of herbal education, from its early days online to today's video-centric approach.jim and I reflect on personal growth through knowledge sharing and discuss how creativity, storytelling, and relatable analogies are crucial in making herbalism education both engaging and effective.
In our conversation, we tackle the challenges of online teaching, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, and explore strategies for maintaining meaningful connections in virtual classrooms. We discuss fostering interaction with students through open-ended conversations and "connection calls," which help build relationships beyond the structured curriculum. Learn how to adapt teaching methods to accommodate different learning styles and grasp the essence of concepts, moving beyond rote memorization. By using vivid analogies, we emphasize the importance of a solid foundation in herbal knowledge, which leads to a comprehensive understanding of herbal medicine.
As we wrap up, we celebrate the diverse world of herbalism, emphasizing simplicity and practicality in teaching and healing. jim shares personal stories of resilience and gratitude for the support from students and the small business community. Together, we highlight the value of unschooling, slowing down the learning process, and mastering foundational knowledge to address complex health issues confidently. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or new to herbalism, this episode offers a rich tapestry of insights into the art and craft of herbal education, inspiring collaboration and appreciation for the small steps that lead to profound healing.
Heart of Herbs Herbal School
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The content provided in this podcast is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or medical condition. It is always recommended to consult with a qualified healthcare professional
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times in it. Hi, this is Demetra Clark, the director of Heart of Herbs Herbal School and Heart of Herbs Herb School podcast. So, anyways, today we are talking to Jim McDonald and I'm really excited because I haven't had her. I don't think we've ever spoken before.
Speaker 2:I do not think that we have.
Speaker 1:And I don't think our paths have ever crossed, so I'm really excited about this. So thank you for being here today. Tell us where we can find you and all that fun stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, to start with, I think the way that our paths have crossed that you don't know is I heard a podcast with you that Masonason did um and um. You were on a podcast with bevin cohen, who's also here from michigan. Um cross paths with and bevin is like so super love him he's awesome. He is such a really cool down-to-earth practical guy. Um, and yeah, I so. Um, I've listened to you talk, uh, before but yeah, I I don't think we've looked at each other before, right.
Speaker 2:So my name is Jim McDonald. I teach in Southeast Michigan and also sort of wherever people can get me to come out to if I can make it work. So that's been in different parts of the country, a few different parts of the world, which is kind of cool. I feel like I need like one more time before I can sound like international teacher. But yeah, so I teach around different places if I can make it work.
Speaker 2:I have an in-person course that I do and an online course that I do called Lindera just Lindera, because when I was trying to think of names, I wanted something that people wouldn't shorten down to you know like anyway, and I just I basically I'm here because back in like I think it was like 94, I got into into herbs and I just never stopped being interested in it. And when you get into something and you never stop doing it, provided you keep kind of pushing your edges, you sort of get deeper into it and a little bit more skilled at it. So I think that that's happened and I have a lot of mason jars, cool Lots of jars and bottles Accumulated over the decade.
Speaker 1:So like 1994. How old are you?
Speaker 2:I'm 52. I just turned 52.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're the same age as my husband Okay, cool, okay, okay, okay. So I was just trying to think, like where I was in 94 in reference to my herbal Kindle journey, and I was in New York, so that's cool. So you teach, people invite you to teach all over the place, and today I really want you to share with us some of the things that you like the most about teaching and some of the things that are challenging, because I feel like herbal education is changing really quickly right now.
Speaker 1:I remember when I so when I started heart of herbs in 1998 and my first little like little um geo cities herb school page that is so awesome right, I mean, it was like.
Speaker 1:It was like um, I mean, my first herbal business was in 96, online, right, I was an early adopter to this technology, but everyone was like this will never work. What is wrong with you? And I was like I'm going to do it because I'm broke and I have to feed my kid and you know all this kind of stuff, right? And then we're seeing, I think, that change again and shift again and everyone's going to everything's on video. And I am not a video person. I am very shy and like this podcast is actually my way of trying to make myself grow the fuck up. Grow up and and and and not be such a baby about stuff like that, cause I'm actually really shy in real life, and so this is like something I've been working on, the one-on-one aspect, but that's another shift in teaching, and so it's just like. It's just this, like amazing to me that everything is changing so quickly, but staying the same so quickly too. What are your views on that?
Speaker 2:I started teaching because so much of my teaching origins are like this. I started teaching because I kind of got nagged into it. I was going to a place I was really interested in herbs. You know, I got into it when I was in college. A friend left a book out and I just started making stuff. And again, I never stopped making stuff and so I have lots of things now and I spent a bunch of time where there was a bonfire and barefoot people and I realized that there were there, people drumming in the grateful bed.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So there's just, there is a subset of people who don't automatically, when they're around a bonfire and they're not wearing shoes, look down to see where they're putting their feet Right, and so, like people would step on embers and be like, ah, and if I was there I'd be like, oh, hang on, I'd go and find something and be like, you know, crush this up and put it on there. You know, chew it up and put it on there. And after a while of doing that, someone was like, oh, you don't actually grab the same thing, that's not the same thing you grabbed last time. I was like, oh well, that thing's not growing anymore, it's like later in the year. So, and also, I want to try different stuff out.
Speaker 2:And that place also, you know, hosted classes and workshops and said like, oh, you should teach something here. And I'm like I don't know anything about teaching, like I got nothing to, like I don't. You know, I don't even know how I would do that. They kept asking and asking, and asking and asking. I'm fine, Okay, I'll do it. And so the first class I ended up doing was like a seven hour herb walk.
Speaker 1:Um holy moly. Yeah, yeah, um actually get their money's worth $25.
Speaker 2:I think 20, $20. If you were a member, we gave you food, you got a tincture. It was a really great deal for students and a really bad deal for me. I don't know, I was learning, it was okay, so I did that spring, summer, fall and then I was like, oh, this is kind of fun, like, actually, I like this and people are asking me questions and I think that at the time and this would have been like the late 90s how it worked for me is like there were a lot more people who would ask me questions and try out what my suggestions were than I had previously known. And so I was like, oh, this is a way to get more experience doing stuff. Right, you know, it's not just like me and my wife and a few friends that will make the teas that I'm making. That tastes weird.
Speaker 2:Um, and after I taught, um, you know, sort of like these long day classes for a bunch of years, the students who were coming to them they're like would you do like a longer course? And I was like I don't know how I would put that together and everything. And eventually enough people asked me and I started doing that and again, you know I started doing it and like I just kept doing it and as time went on, you know I started doing it and like I just kept doing it and as time went on, you know I sort of like expanded it and like I would teach it and I would get ideas, and like I can't fit that in, there's not enough hours, and so I made it bigger and kind of like grew it out to what it is now. So I have a course that runs april through october. Um, there's eight weekends of, you know, seven hour days, um, and doing that and when. And I have a comment to make about on this next thing, but like we just started before the pandemic took off and shut everything you know down.
Speaker 2:Like that december we did, I think, our first like I did a class in person and then I we live streamed it so people could tune in online, and then we had the recordings of that class which we started selling. And then then the pandemic happened and, like everyone else, I was like what am I going to do to make money? Like, how will I pay my bills? Like, oh, we'll have to like, or, and also I have a course that's starting, you know, in a month, and you know how am I going to make this happen when we're not allowed to get together? The students were awesome, you know, no one really dropped out of that year in 2020. And they were all like, okay, we'll do stuff online.
Speaker 2:And I think we did the first three weekends, or two weekends, you know, online, and then, when we can meet outside, we just did the entire course outside. And then the year after that I said like my wife really was like, well, we should just do like an online version for people that can't come out. So now there's like an online version and then it's an in-person version. They're basically the same course, a little bit different because of the structures.
Speaker 2:But I want to go back to what you said is that I just remember? I mean, like all the way, not even the 90s, but all the way up to 2020, when the pandemic hurt, there were a lot of people saying things like you can't teach online, that doesn't really count, or you can't see clients online. That's like you're not a real herbalist If you're only, you know, talking to people on the phone, zoom or Skype. And I'm I'm so glad that that has ended, because I was, like you know cause. One of the things I was really active from the late nineties through probably now, before it was called social media, they were like these email listservs, right. So like.
Speaker 2:American herbalist guild had a Yahoo group before that.
Speaker 2:Henriette Kress um, right right, she had a very active email list and I w I was always very active on that and people used to say, um, oh yeah, jim McDonald's one of those internet herbalists. And I was like I do not think you're saying that in a way that is like complimentary, like there was a little bit of a dig in there, or maybe in some cases like a really blatant dig. Like that. That kind of work doesn't count and I think it's interesting now that everyone's doing that right oh yeah, no, I got all the.
Speaker 1:I got emails from people like actually like big verbal people telling me I was gross and disgusting because our classes were online and I wasn't. I didn't have classes online because I thought like, oh, this is the wave of the future, I'm so forward thinking. That was where my audience were. That was where the people who wanted to take my classes were. They were military spouses or they were moms with kids. That's where my audience was, and so they wanted me to be there. So that's why I went there, because I don't think of myself as being like any kind of tech, whatever, right, I mean it's, I'm not, and so like it is interesting how that's changed. And sometimes I just want to be like, hey, 20 years over here I've been.
Speaker 2:Don't tell me how the wheel works, but it is and I think that, like what you were saying, like being receptive to the needs of the students, that's what's in. Like that's of predominant importance of um, like like, if, if you're going to teach, certainly there is a like, how can I teach best what works for me? Because, um, people can't really teach in ways that don't work for them. Like I don't do PowerPoints because I am really bad at them. I did one um one time ever and I was like oh, you know, people say that PowerPoints help keep you on track, but part of my thing is, like I'm not really on track, like I have an idea and I talk about that idea when I get to the end of that concept or idea, rather than thinking like this is the next thing that happens, which I do sometimes a lot of things I think like, oh, I can go, you know, here, here or here. From this end point, which way do I want to go today? And a part of why I do that is because I don't want to get bored.
Speaker 2:You know I teach a lot of the same material. You know, like, the number of times I've talked about like dandelion on an herb walk is like it's a lot, you know. Oh, I imagine, right, hundreds or thousands, thousands and so like. Sometimes I start with the flowers, sometimes I start with the roots, I'm gonna start with the leaves, I might go into like one or another stuff, but I don't want to get it to be like where I feel like I'm reciting. And especially, I've seen some teachers you know who and I feel like, oh, they do not seem like they love what they're teaching anymore. You know know, it's kind of like rewind tape, press play, and I don't want that to happen to me and that's not. This kind of seems like a judgment.
Speaker 2:It's not really a judgment. It's something that I know happens, and so I'm trying to actively not do that. So I want to think about like well, you know, what can I do, what works for me? But then, equally important is like how do I figure out what the students want to learn and what I think that they should learn? Right, because those are often two different things. And how do I help them learn what they want to learn in a way that I think is maybe more effective than they know exists?
Speaker 2:So, most people when they learn about herbs and this is how I learned about herbs they think you know, in one of two directions. Usually the first direction is I found this herb, what problems is it good for? Or the other direction is I have this problem, what herbs are good for this problem? And I mean that makes all the sense in the world. But where I think of is that the whole idea of holistic medicine and herbalism that's practiced holistically is that we're not. We are doing what everyone says, where we're looking at the person and saying like, oh, I don't want to just treat a cough, I want treat your cough you know.
Speaker 2:So if someone yeah, were to send me an email that says what I do for a cough, I'd be like no idea, because I don't know what kind of cough you have yeah and then I can say, like, is your cough drier, is it damper, is it more spasmodic?
Speaker 2:you know that can be like a starting place that most people can answer that question and then explain, you know, um, like why that matters and that for drier coughs we use demulcent herbs that are more moistening and for damper costs we tend to use more aromatic herbs that are more drying and for spasmodic costs we use relaxant herbs. You know, um, and as as long as I don't overcomplicate that, most people will get it, because most people have been in a house where everyone was sick with the same thing and they all have it a little bit differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so for me, it's like the idea of herbal actions and herbal energetics, which I think you know actions are here and energetics are here and they sort of like fit together like that. Actions are here and energetics are here and they sort of like fit together. Like that, um, I can explain that in a way that's not super complicated. That makes people be like I don't get it, this is over my head. Um, by being silly and telling stories and having weird props like donuts or pool noodles or scissors or whatever you know, uh, and then they, they get that sort of like more nuanced understanding is a is a beginning place, rather than learning the this for that herbalism and then studying herbalism longer and realizing like, oh wait, that doesn't work.
Speaker 2:And then now I need to go back and back and I think I'm gonna like paraphrase you I don't think I can quote you I think I think on one of the podcasts and and pretty sure it was bevans you said something about like, um, making, making like a tower with your kids and if, like, if the foundation isn't good, the tower falls over. And because I love it, yeah, that's our, I love analogies to this day.
Speaker 1:Both of them are first responders and they use that principle on every like, rescue or because they do all different kinds of they're. I told you they're wild and crazy, but they they actually like. It's got to have a strong base, good foundation. Without the foundation, everything crumbles blah, blah, blah. And my youngest son used those principles, became, I think, the youngest captain in the fire department in North Carolina ever. Using that kind of stuff, being an unschooled kid, so it's just kind of like you know it's so true in everything.
Speaker 1:Sorry, honey, I told all your business. I know it's kind of like. You know it's so true in everything. Sorry honey, I told all your business.
Speaker 2:I know, when I hear like, a really like, just a great analogy that takes an idea, that makes something be like, really relatable. Because if you talk about like oh, it's so important to have this foundational knowledge, you know, to support the structures that you build on top of it. That makes sense to a lot of people. But everyone has built a tower or played Jenga or you know done something like that. And when they have that um, that sort of like visual you know of like, oh, oh, I know what that means. Like you know, I've had everything fall down because you know the the foundation wasn't strong, you know. Or I tried to stack up boxes and I put heavy boxes on top of boxes that weren't really full and the box collapsed and everything fell down.
Speaker 2:As soon as we have something so relatable like that, that analogy and that experience becomes the like, the anchor for the concept yeah and so much of what I'm doing when I'm teaching is trying to like think what is the most relatable anchor for a concept, and and I think you know, and there are people who really want to know all the names of the everything and all the different tissues and have to spell all the words to everyone and like that. But I really think, even though I can spell at least a lot of the words, there's a few that I've never quite gotten.
Speaker 1:I can't pronounce some of them, no matter how hard I try.
Speaker 2:Same. Thing.
Speaker 1:I'm like. My students think I'm an idiot.
Speaker 2:Like whatever, I'm human I really like the gist of like do you get the gist of it like do you understand the concept of it?
Speaker 1:yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:I know that there have been things that I could say all the words. I had memorized them, right, I learned how to spell them. I could say all the words. I had memorized them, right, I had learned how to spell them. I could say all the words. But if someone were to be like, explain that in a completely different way than what you just said, I'd be like and there are other things where, like, I get the gist of it and I can say it in a you know, using several different ways of talking. But if someone said, like, can you say all the appropriate advanced level, you know medical and pathophysiological terminology? I'd be like I don't think that I can.
Speaker 2:You know, I work with a lot of fevers, you know, and pediatric fevers I have a lot of experience with, and I know that there's, like these stages of fever.
Speaker 2:You know this stage and this stage and this stage.
Speaker 2:I could not tell them to you right now, because my stages of fever is like, imagine you're in a house and you have some unwanted house ghosts and you're like how can I get rid of them? Maybe I'll just turn the thermostat way up and otherwise the heat will just blow out of the house and it'll like stress out the furnace from running and running and running and the house won't get hot. So I got to like turn on the heat and close the windows and then when they um, if, if, when they're starting to get like exhausted and wanting to leave but they think maybe I'll stick it out and stay, um, I'm also getting, I might just crack the window a little bit and then close it and let some heat out. Crack the window and close it, so like I can do that. Or I can talk about being in a car in michigan in the winter when you know you have the, the heat up. Cars are changing nowadays and you just have a, you just put the number on oh yeah I just found out.
Speaker 1:My steering wheel has heat I didn't know that I've owned it for a year and a half.
Speaker 2:I was recently in a car that had like a massaging seat and I was like you've got to be kidding me. I'll probably have one of those in like 12 years.
Speaker 1:I would never get one because I'd go to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I'm always trying to, you know, I'm always trying to figure out, like, the gist of it. I think that, not in every single case ever, but in a lot of cases like, understanding the gist of it like is more important than being able to say all the words and pronounce them properly and spell them properly. You know, like, if you understand it and you understand how it works, you know it's okay and and maybe we can, we can go back because we have the bond of like. You know our kids are unschooled. You know they largely figured out how to do all the stuff themselves and they came up with different ways of learning than what conventional ways of learning are. And you know, my, my kid, who's in college right now, is like rocking it. You know he's doing really, really well in college and it's not because he learned the way that you're supposed to, like he learned.
Speaker 1:He learned how to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he learned how to learn, he learned a way to learn that worked best for him, and now he's, you know, able to apply that to different situations, different situations. And so, um, if, if I'm in a class and I'm trying to convey a concept, often what I'm doing is I'm like okay, there's the visual people, the visual learners, there's the story learners and there's the give me the nuts and bolts of the concepts learners, and so I might run through something and like give the. Okay, so this is physiologically like, this is the thing that's happening. And then, um, have some silly prop, like, uh, you know, um, what do I have right now? I've got different things, like a lufa sponge or you know way more exciting stuff on your desk than I do oh yeah, you know, like, like.
Speaker 2:So I like you know this is a piece of leather that is properly, it has the right amount of moisture and so, like, it's flexible, you can squish it up and stretch it out and it mostly goes back to shape.
Speaker 2:This is the piece of leather that is really like dry, and so I bent it once and now you know it's got stiffness to it, so it doesn't really work. It doesn't want to stretch very much and if I stretch it you'll see those little tears on the surface of it. So people see something and then I can tell a story about, like, a client that had something going on. And those three things work together for different types of learners all at the same time, rather than being like, oh I'm only going to tell a story or I'm only going to use some kind of prop, or I'm only going to give the pathophysiology of it, and it hits most people. Well, it covers most styles of learning. So it's a good way I get to see when I'm doing it especially if I can do it in person where there's a class I can see people's reactions to like the way of explaining that works for them, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Pretty good and I would say it's like so for me. Um, when, when we switched to doing the online classes and the first time that we did it, we just did a class where there were people there and then we had the recording of that class that people who weren't there were able to watch and then watch afterwards. And then when we wanted to record all the rest of the modules for the course, we just basically did it where I'm sitting in this chair with this wall behind me and there was not people around. That was so hard for me to like. It's different, yeah To say like there were two things. One is I talk in an endless run on sentence. You know that if you wrote it out, it would be really long.
Speaker 1:Some of my lecture transcripts look like that it would be really long.
Speaker 2:Some of my lecture transcripts look like that and then if I messed up, we'd be like, okay, where can you pick up from? And I was like, oh, like 10 minutes ago maybe. But the other thing is I am so used to from so many in-person classes and having people there, I'm so used to like saying something and then like scoping the room out to be like did that land?
Speaker 1:yeah, and when the?
Speaker 2:only person was in the room was my wife, who you know we worked together and you know she was doing the techie stuff in the filming. Even though she's in the room, if she's making a face, it's not usually about anything that I said, it's about some light, you know, some meter moving. I I'm just like, ah, it's interesting, the um, the different ways of teaching we have.
Speaker 1:oh sorry we have in the beginning of our program. I explain that sometimes it may feel like I'm saying it over and over again, and I'm not actually saying it over and over again for you. I'm saying it over and over again for everybody's different way of learning. So, yes, I may have like a worksheet, or may have a lecture, I may have the written material, we may have a slideshow, we may have a whatever right. And that's because what I'm trying to do is to work with differing types of learning and abilities.
Speaker 1:And then occasionally, you know, at the end of the course, I'll be like do you have any comments? They're like a few things you said a few too many times. I'm like okay, but you got it. So we're good. You know, because it's like, because you, just as we learn about how people are changing the way that learning happens, people are becoming aware like I'm a visual learner, I'm this, I'm that, that it's. It's helpful, I think, to just kind of try to preemptively get in front of it. But I always feel like, um, there's always one more way I could do. So you ever feel like there's one more way I could present it or one more type of presentation I can do.
Speaker 2:I, I, I, so agree, um, I, I. Usually one of the ways that I preempt things is if I know people are going to say that because I repeat things like crazy, like about magnesium and how important magnesium is, you know, I think like, maybe somewhere during the class I'm like today's class is brought to you by magnesium or demulsions, um, or demulsions, um. But I let people know it's like, because it's usually not like repetitive, because I think people think like, oh, they said the same thing and I'm like, no, I, I, I address the same concept over and over and over and over again, but I did not say it in the same way. So, like, maybe, if there's a certain, you know, like plant that we're talking about, um, it gets talked about when I'm doing like, the big picture overview of how to understand the concept of energetics and herbal actions and how they overlap, and I might use that as an example.
Speaker 2:And then later on in the course, we're doing a field walk and we see that plant and I talk about that plant and I talk about some of the stuff I talked about when we were illustrating as an example. And then if the plant is like mullein, um, we talk about it related to the respiratory system, we talk about related to the musculoskeletal system. We talk about it related to infections, maybe in your ear. We talk about it in relation to urinary issues, you know, and strengthening the bladder and helping with incontinence, and so all of those things get sort of like readdressed, but they get readdressed from slightly different angles and I think that that's good, because the idea of I think it's important, it's essential there's one time that I'm going to say this thing and if you miss it it's gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that doesn't happen and I don't think that that's good teaching. You know one of the things um, I have had some people you know they'll be like maybe part way into the class and they'll be like I don't feel like I have. Can you know, like assess someone's constitution and the energetic states of all of their different organs and systems and then know which herbal actions I should use and create a formula that is perfectly balanced for them? And I was like I don't know if I can do that all the time. This is like getting better at that is the goal, and one of the ideas that I have is like I love the word wonder, and I love the word wonder because it's that's how I learn. Like that's the predominant way that I learn. Is I make time to sit down or lay down or walk around and just wonder open-endedly about stuff, rather than being with a goal, to like I want to learn about this and then know the answer to it, so that I know it and I'm done and I can move on to the next thing.
Speaker 2:I tend more often to be like I'm going to keep wondering about this issue and see all the different ways that I can grow my understanding of it without there being an end point of like knowing the thing. Because when people not always and there's certainly things that I, you know, I'm not going to say that there's not stuff that I don't know, you know, I know that mucilage is a compound, that, um, it is one of the ways that things can be demulcent if they have a lot of it, um, but the problem with knowing stuff is that it can be an end point for for people, they'll be like, oh, I learned this and now I know it. And then, at a certain point later, if you find something, I'm just gonna use my name or me as the example. If I know something and then later on I find something that conflicts with that, I might get like dismissive of conflicting information. I might get defensive, that like, oh, but I know this and this conflicts with it. So I'm gonna, you know, not be into that, um, rather than like being like, oh, wow, my current state of understanding does not incorporate that like.
Speaker 2:I want to look into that and see if that can grow my understanding. Yeah, and I think that that's a good way to learn and, if I have to say one of the things, and it's it's been happening for a while, but I feel like, as more and more stuff has been taught online, um, people want to, they, they want to learn so quickly. You know, like I'm.
Speaker 1:I get through this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am an unschooled herbalist, so I did not take um any kind of structured course with anyone and I learned absolutely. I've learned from a lot of different people. I learned, absolutely learned from a lot of different people. I never went through anyone's structured educational course, um to learn the stuff that that I now teach um, and it took me a really long time, and one of the reasons that took me a long time because I didn't take a course with anyone who could have just explained something to me in like 15 minutes and instead it took me like a couple years to figure it out and put it together.
Speaker 2:Um, but that's okay, like, and I think now when people are like you know well, I can take a um, you know a two or three year course and be a clinical herbalist. I'm like I wouldn't be able to do that, you know, I just so. To me it's like learning more slowly and not being in a rush to know all the things and to be able to do like the most complicated, like impressive herbalism and sort of like what the most complicated and impressive herbalism is kind of interesting because it changes over time, you know. So it's like oh, is it treating hypothyroid and endocrine disorders, or, oh, is it treating Lyme disease, or you know no menopause menopause.
Speaker 2:They're going right now right, I'm a trauma informed, you know, herbalist and I can deal with all the different kinds of trauma and you know, having worked with trauma, I think like there's a lot of different kinds of trauma.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of we talk about trauma, informed care, but it's like literally the iceberg. It is the tip it is the very snowflake at the very tip of the only icebergs we have left.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, like long COVID, you know everyone I understand like of course we want to be able to to help people with the stuff that they're dealing with. But I think and we talked about this kind of before we started I think that a lot of people no-transcript, you got to be really good at treating just regular coughs before you can do that and being like, oh well, you know, when would I use this particular approach to shoot a cough? Versus that approach, you know, am I also including, along with teas and tinctures and syrups like steams? You know, am I thinking about like is massage yeah.
Speaker 2:Exercise or percussion or exercises or whatever, is this a cough that's actually like coming from the lungs, or is it coming from like post nasal drip that is irritating the throat and you're coughing, kind of to scratch and itch?
Speaker 1:Is it boogery? Yeah right, I use lots of formal language. Can you spell?
Speaker 2:boogery for me. I need to make sure I'm writing this down properly. Yeah, so I think you know. Going back to the tower like having really solid foundational understanding of what are the basics. And basics are like foundational principles, not like beginner stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know people will be like oh, that's beginner herbalism. I already know that and I'm like oh, I just feel like most of what I'm doing is trying to refine my understanding of quote unquote beginner herbalism, because I view it as foundational and if I know that really well I can handle a lot of situations, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I agree, there was a time and this is a long time ago, decades back in my herbal learning it was probably the first time that I had a consult with someone who was like really remarkably sick. They had lupus. I think their lung functioning was like in the teens, and you know, I back then I lived in an apartment and I was doing house calls or meeting people at libraries or coffee shops, and so I met this person at their house and their ability to like get up from a chair and walk to the couch was impaired. And I do remember thinking like, ooh, I am over my head and I had this insight and it's it's, it's still one of the most important insights that I have had that I still apply regularly, which is just because I can't do everything doesn't mean I can't do anything.
Speaker 2:And I like took a breath and I was like, okay, I'm not, my goal or my expectation isn't going to be that I'm going to make his lupus go away. That's not happening. So I can take that pressure off myself and be like what do I see? And what I saw through observation and through listening and through, you know, intuiting, based on our conversation and listen, you know getting information was like his lungs were really inflamed. They've been inflamed for a really long time. The tissue was really really really dry and dry tissue. To go back to that little piece of leather, cracking that leather yeah dry tissue.
Speaker 2:To go back to that little piece of leather, cracking that leather, yeah, that um dry tissue doesn't. It's stiff, it doesn't want to stretch right, it loses its pliability and so when the lungs want to, but the tissue is really stiff, there's that resistance there and I was like I think slimy respiratory demulcence would be great, and so I made a tea that was like marshmallow and plantain and mullein.
Speaker 1:Slime, slime, slime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Slime, slime, slime. Marshmallow, plantain and mullein. And that tea did so much good. It improved his quality of life so much.
Speaker 1:And that's so beautifully simple.
Speaker 2:It's so like massive change from beautiful simplicity. Yeah, they're not complicated herbs. They're not, like you know, cause sometimes just like being able to treat the coolest you know, complicated condition is like the goal for people. There's also the goal to use, like the most exotic sexy, whatever is like.
Speaker 1:Ooh, you know's also the goal to use, like the most, every exotic sexy whatever is like oh, you know, I'm gonna use ghost pipe for this.
Speaker 2:Or like, oh, I'm skilled enough that you know I can use like raw wolfia, um, and there's a time and a place where some of those herbs are like the right thing, but a lot of it was just like there's something really simple and discernible with your senses that you can figure out. That will, that can really improve someone's quality of life, and I always do that.
Speaker 1:Keep it simple, silly. I don't say stupid, because they're my students. Well, I keep a simple, silly, like if you overdo it. We also, we we talk a lot about. Look, you don't have to know everything. You don't know how to't have to know everything. You don't know how to know how to do everything.
Speaker 2:You need to listen to the person that's in front of you and then find a way to make it compliant and easy and accessible.
Speaker 1:So if they're like I'll take one dose of tincture a day. Make it count.
Speaker 2:Not everyone's going gonna do 47 things. Yeah, I, you know I've had people that have told me like, oh, you know, my last herbalist or my last herbal teacher, you know, would come with these formulas. And it was like you know, there's two trees you need to drink and you know this one tea. Um, because it's got a demulcent in there and some aromatics. It's best to do like a cold infusion of the marshmallow root separately and then combine it with a hot tea, and I'm just like I understand why that makes all the sense in the world. That's a lot of work. Yeah, I mean like I don't even know if I would do that.
Speaker 1:If you're busy and you have a life that we we want to make people's lives better, not another task or another chore or another. Uh, I talk to my students. I'm like, look, if you give somebody something where they cannot do it and they will fail, the healing stops because you're like fine, I can't do this, forget it.
Speaker 2:This isn't for me, you know, and instead of it's like everything should be just practical and simple, and or that's just what I think I mean, I know, I'm so with you, because if you come up with a protocol for someone, you know suggestions for them and it's really not realistic for them to do. And then when they don't come back and see you and I've heard people say things like this, like oh well, you know, they just weren't really committed to their healing and I'm like, well, I mean, could they have been if they didn't feel overwhelmed? Because if they felt overwhelmed with it, or they couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then they come back to you. They're going to be like no, I'm not doing the thing you told me to do, no, I'm not. They're going to feel like they failed and that just never needs to be what happens. And there are people who would love a multi-pronged plan with a thousand things to do, because they're meticulous people. But there's a really simple thing that we can do is we can ask them, you know, like what feels doable to you, like this is often what I do is like these are my ideas, like what feels doable. You don't have to do all the ideas at one time. You can be like let's start with like three things, like what are three things that you feel like you can do? You know, can you eat more greens? You know?
Speaker 1:Can you stop using Splenda in your coffee? Yeah, can you eat more greens? Or?
Speaker 2:whatever, whatever, like. Are you like? I know I'm an herbalist and I do have a thing where, like, if I tell someone to drink tea and they're like I don't like tea, I I also do the thing in my head.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm an herbalist, he's my thing like like tea man that's what I do, but I will try to keep that inside my head and and then be like, okay, and and. What I'm thinking quietly is we'll work on the tea thing. We'll get there, because what it might be is, after I do something that they can do and they feel better from it, they will be more open to making space to make tea.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I cannot agree with you more. I can't believe this is the first time we've ever talked.
Speaker 2:I can't agree with you more. You know't believe this is the first time we've ever talked with you more.
Speaker 1:I, you know it's like, uh, when people would ask me like well, how do you make kids take herbs, well, first of all I would just be like, hey guys, you need to take this, you want to feel better. This tastes like, you know, whatever, just pound it. You know that would be this the phrase that would give my kids a pound it, and then it'd work. And then they would be like give me that stuff. You gave me a pound last time. You know cause they could, you know, pound it or or put it in a Popsicle, make it in their oatmeal.
Speaker 2:I mean, like there's so many ways it doesn't have to be Chasers, right, yeah, like what can you do a chaser? Right you like this thing have that be your chaser.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and it's just. I feel like sometimes herbalism has gotten so regimented on how it must be performed and how we must apply and blah blah, and I'm just like but we're not, we're human. Some people will go out and eat the plantain, Other people are going to make it into a tea, other people, people are gonna want it in an oil. That's okay.
Speaker 2:You know, it doesn't all have to be the same way yeah, yeah, and that I mean that's that's the great thing about it too, right, it's because it it allows you to be um flexible, it allows you to be creative. I mean, it's one of the reasons we say art, the art of herbalism, is because there's so much personal artistry to it. I love looking at people's formulas. You know, like if I look at someone's formulas and I look like, oh my God, I would never have done that and not in a way of like that sometimes. So sometimes it could be like that's horrible, like that sometimes. So sometimes it could be like that's horrible, but a lot of times it's just like that's just like. You know, you get better herbalism and you can be like, oh, I see that I can see the reasoning in this formula and how they put it together, but I would have never thought to you know, mix this and this and this.
Speaker 1:And that's just like cooking, I guess you know. I love those moments, though, where I like see someone's thing and I'm like, whoa duh, why wasn't I doing that? I love that, like because I feel so much, I get to learn so much from those moments like, okay, I get it, let me learn more, let me figure this out a little bit more, like, why did they do it like that? And I those moments because it reminds me that we're not practicing in a vacuum. You know that, that we're all different and we all have different ideas on stuff. That's really important, interesting work. So I always feel lucky when my mind gets blown yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is great, it's one of the um I mean. So you have this podcast, you get to talk to all kinds of different people and and you know, like, uh, I, I have ideas and thoughts about a podcast and just haven't put them all together because oh, I think you'd be great yes, so so many projects trying to to get them all done, but, um, it like the, the interaction between people.
Speaker 2:um, and one of the things is when I started teaching online to go back to the teaching thing, you know I was doing it and it was. You know it was right when covet was happening and you know like I was learning how it worked and people who weren't used to doing it were learning how it worked, and everyone had their cameras off and you know I was like, oh, it's like I can't see people's expressions, I can't see where their stuff is landing. And then I just learned a few things and one of them was like to tell people like, hey, like, if you don't want to have your camera on, because, whatever you know, you're in your bathrobe or not, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say nudie woodies or your house is really messy and there's laundry baskets around, that's totally OK. But if you, you know, if you, if you can have your camera, that would be great, because it just helps me to see people's like facial expressions and reactions, and then people would put their camera on. It's like, oh well, you know one of.
Speaker 2:Wow, everybody's house is a mess. We're all living in COVID, right, it makes people relatable and I started doing this. Other thing is like in the online course, you know, there's like videos that people watch and then we have our Zoom discussion. You know, of each little module that we release and at a certain point after the you know the timeframe of it would end, stephanie would have to like save all the videos, you know, and like do stuff downstairs. So we couldn't just stop everything and be done and go upstairs and dinner. We'd have maybe, like you know, a half hour to an hour of like saving the stuff and putting things away. And I was like I'm just going to be like classes over, but you can all turn your mics on. You know, if you need to go, that's all, but you can all turn your mics on. You know, if you need to go, that's all, but you can all turn your mics on and we can just talk about stuff we can talk about. You can ask me other herb questions you have. If you're interested in that, you can. You know, tell me about your cat, you can?
Speaker 2:You know, we just have this open-ended conversation and, um, we start creating these like after banter, like there's always after banter after the thing, and it was so awesome and it wasn't something that like the majority of people did. But there were the people that stuck around and there were some core people and then some, you know, people that would, some days or depending what their schedule was, like more of the back and forth and like the conversation that I would get to have with students, like before class or during lunch or after class, which was like the stuff that got cut out. It made the whole interaction feel like a lot more like two way and it made me feel like I was kind of getting to know some of the students and so since we started that, we've just kept doing that. You know, there might be I think there was one time I'm like I'm going to a concert, I need to leave Skedaddle.
Speaker 1:We started doing connection calls. I just call them connection calls and, like you know, once or twice a month I'll post it If they show up. They show up and we basically just kind of free form talk about what any you, you know, whatever anybody wants to talk about, and sometimes we'll, you know, upload them to the student group. Other times they just kind of like you know, well, we don't need that, use that for anything, but I think it's, I think it's helpful because I think the more, the more we're online, the further we are apart.
Speaker 1:And like as business owners, we have to be online.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You have to be in those spaces that you know. You know those spaces that you have to be in. I don't want anyone to come and find me if I start putting out brand names of social spaces. They're coming for me, they're listening, but you know, like, like you know, it's the, the that has robbed us of a lot of connection by creating 30 seconds soundbite connection, and so my intention was trying okay, let's, let's go back, let's try to get back to real hours at a time connection versus, you know, three minutes or whatever. And I'm glad that you're able to do the banter and the fun stuff with your students at the end, because that's important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just it makes a huge difference and you know it's so. It's not that there's not truth to it, but it's so easy and tempting to say, like, well, just, you know, in-person classes are just inherently always better than online classes and if I wanted to, I could, I could make a case for that. But then I think, like I've got some great relationships with some of my online students. Right and even and way better than that honestly is, some of my online students have great connections with each other.
Speaker 1:I know some of mine have started businesses together.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, so I have some students.
Speaker 1:15 years they're still emailing me telling me what they're up to. I love that. I'm not sure I would have had that face to faceing me telling me what they're up to. I love that. I'm not sure I would have had that face to face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is so great, you know, to see that happen and to see like these friendships form.
Speaker 2:And then I think like, oh, you know, like if I go back even though it's a whole different thing, but if I go back to my, my late 90s email listserv things, you know whether the old Yahoo group style groups like some of the friends that I have now that I think were in person friends we met online, Like that was like the origins of of our, our friendships were from that.
Speaker 2:And I've just kind of forgotten, because we're just good friends now, and like I'm like, oh yeah, I met that person online, I met that person online. And so it's like there's the easy thing to say about, you know, like in-person learning being better than online learning. And then I think there's the more well-considered thing, which also goes into access, is that there are access issues. Access is that there are access issues. There are people that would like to learn from me that just don't have the means financially or geographically to come to classes. You know, but the way, um, that I teach or, um, you know, the, the content that I teach, really resonates with them and this makes it available and like that, that makes me happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's I. I feel like, um, I feel like the growing pains of early online has been worth it for what I gained from it you know like um long-term commitments to students and and I do, I have done in person um, actually my first in person was for the department of defense oh really herbs and breastfeeding. I was pregnant with my first child and they paid me to teach a class to all the other moms.
Speaker 2:Oh, that is so funny.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean it's just funny because, like we have these, I don't think I would have drawn students from 120 countries if I was teaching in person, right, and that is a gift to me.
Speaker 1:That is like I learned so much, much, like just from well, this is how we use whatever in Egypt and I'm like what, what that's so cool, you know Like. So I just feel like, I feel like I've gotten so much out of it personally, like just getting this, this variety of students I don't think I ever would have gotten before. So I understand the, the connection throughout time and space. You know, like you can, you can connect with so many more people in that platform yeah and yeah, make, make.
Speaker 2:I mean if. If the goal is or at least for my goal, is to like share information and share understanding and share I mean one of my goals in teaching and one of the reasons of why I teach is because I feel like there's information that should be more accessible than it is. And if that's one of my goals in teaching, then I should embrace different ways of making that be accessible and not be like I want it to be accessible, but only in this way. You know A hundred percent that be accessible and not be like I want it to be accessible but only in this way.
Speaker 1:100%.
Speaker 2:And there's also just really practically doing. The online course has really helped me out, because one of the things that was a struggle before is I only make a living when I am somewhere doing something. That's the only time that you know any any income is coming in is I am elsewhere. Else, you know, and I am, you know, doing something and for the durations that I'm doing, that I'm making a living, and when you know, different people will structure online stuff.
Speaker 2:Some people do all their online stuff live and I was like no, I'm going to you know, like have it be like to you know like record, have it, have it be like solid, you know, because, um, I can make it be the way that I want to have the stuff that I want, which was tedious, um, but I, I wanted you had ownership of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was your you were holding your room.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, because you know like prior to to doing that.
Speaker 2:You know I've I've done online things for other people which you know I'm not upset about because I like them and everything is cool, but I did. There was one thing that I did where I was away and the thing was like, oh, we can get, you can make more income if we stream this while you're doing it. And I was like, oh sure, why, why wouldn't I do that? And I think I learned, like a couple years later, that that recording was being like used over and over and over and over again and I hadn't thought like, oh, oh, is that something that can happen? You know, I was like just that one class.
Speaker 1:And so it's like, oh, I didn't know about that yeah, when we, when we hire people to teach for us, we always do like a licensing agreement, you know, like, look, this is how we're trying to be really clear, like this is how we're going to use it, you know, so they know, and so they can come back and say you're not paying me enough for that, you need to pay me more. Okay, let's talk. But yeah, it's interesting seeing, like, the ways that different things are used.
Speaker 2:There's a learning curve, but then I think like there's a learning curve with in-person stuff too, because I thought that I, even though I kind of want to, I'm not going to out this person. There was a person I taught an in-person class for going to um out this person. There was a person I taught an in-person class for, actually taught a series of in-person classes for them, and at a certain point I was like I don't know if I really get on with this person the way that I would like to and I very specifically thought it doesn't matter, I'm teaching for the students who are coming to the class and not for the person who's hosting them.
Speaker 2:until they did not pay me, like you know, three quarters more than that of you know, a weekend that I taught somewhere and then after that I was like, oh no, like you know, I want to. I want to have a sense of like who I'm teaching for and what their um values or integrity for so it's the thing like if it's not like online, is different.
Speaker 2:It's just learning how to to do that. And I think, going back to maybe where we started, we're gonna, you know, mostly focus on, like, teaching, educating people. Um, there is the, the understanding and the knowledge that you have that you want to share with students, but, in addition, um, I have, you know, funny little props that I can scratch my head, you know, with a little skeleton hand, um, but that doesn't need to be everyone's thing, you know. So, like, yeah, what, what I can, what I can do, is I can you know, teach the way that I can teach. And if someone said like, oh, could you know to teach something like the way that, um, you know Guido.
Speaker 1:Mazzei does. I'd be like, yeah, no, I can't do that.
Speaker 2:That's not. I'm not going to be able to teach something the way Kate Gilday does you know, who is so awesome and like like a slower processor than I am. You know I can't do like meditations or visualizations before class because I'm too silly to pull them off and I talk too fast.
Speaker 1:I'm kind of the same way, so I can find.
Speaker 2:I can kind of like figure out like where my strengths are, and that takes a little bit of trying. I have tried some stuff. I mean like that did not work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but in addition to the knowledge and figuring out the way of teaching that works for you, some people are really great at PowerPoints. They do awesome PowerPoints, so that could be it, but there's also, like, the practicalities of how do you make this work for you, you know, like, is there a way that you can, you know, practically make enough money doing it? So it's worth your time if you're doing it.
Speaker 1:Can you do it long term this way, Like you don't want to get stuck with a style you can't live with?
Speaker 2:Right, can you? If you're doing in-person classes, like, where are you going to do them? Like, is there a place you can do them? Is it really expensive to rent a space? Is it really you know? Like, if you want to do herb walks, you know where are you going to do the herb walks.
Speaker 1:Is there enough?
Speaker 2:parking? How wide Like I do a lot of herb walks Is there enough parking?
Speaker 1:Well, is there? Is there accessible pathways, or is? There, you know who is going to be coming on the on the walk with you, or do you have to be wheelchair accessible or whatever?
Speaker 2:Our bikes's going to be whizzing by you know, your thing every 15 minutes, which is something that I've done, you know. I remember when the pandemic happened. It would be spread out like six feet, you know, even outside for a while.
Speaker 2:Over here there was this narrow boardwalk that we would walk across with all of this poison sumac on it and I'm like the boardwalk's too narrow to get the group of 20 odd people together to look at the poison sumac. And so during lunch I just took like sidewalk chalk and I wrote like little arrows on each of the wooden slots where there was poison sumac and then I like walked ahead of everyone. I was like poison sumac, pass it on, poison sumac. And then I like walked ahead of everyone. I was like poison see Mac, pass it on. Poison see Mac, pass it on. And you see the arrows pointing to them. That was. That was really fun to do.
Speaker 1:actually that sounds fun.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's just figuring out the practicalities of it, because one one place I went to do a walk, you know, like all the plants I was going to be like three hours every single plant I was going to talk about on this loop trail. We would see within the first like 30 yards and I'm like, okay, I can space it out. But people were like what about this plant? I'm like we can't talk about that plant. Yet I'm like this is like it's a beautiful trail and it's a great trail, but like that's not the trail that works best for the plant walk that I'm going to do. Yeah, and that's not the trail that works best for the plant walk that I'm going to do yeah, it's hard.
Speaker 1:You've got to really think about things, and then nature needs to be on board.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know?
Speaker 2:oh well, we were going to bloom this week, but we decided not to. Oh yeah, that happens.
Speaker 1:Climate's changing and things are popping up at different times.
Speaker 2:There's a place I do walks at and um.
Speaker 2:It's a it's a big beautiful field and there's really just like, um, two loop trails, that kind of maybe look like, uh, maybe they're set up like like, like dragonfly wings or like damselfly wings, you know. Um, so there's actually sort of like four loop trails, but let's just put the the like a loop this way and a loop this way, um, and we get to meet back where we started at lunchtime and they also do like dog training stuff in this area and they also do don't eat anything, guys horse stuff in this area and so I have to like look at the schedule to make sure that there's not like a horse thing or a dog thing happening at the same time, because that'll be hard to to co-navigate.
Speaker 2:But sometimes they will mow the edges of the trails and so, like I had scoped out this park, you know, like two weeks before I was going to do the walk there, and then, uh, I hadn't found the right place to talk about Mullen, because where I found it was like too far and it was a July walk. I want to talk about Mullen. So I went back there the night before the class and they had mowed like maybe four feet in from all the trails and made them really wide. So that was kind of nice, except they had mowed over everything that was on the edge of the trails, mullen loves hanging out on the edge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to refine all of the stuff that I couldn't talk about, and so another practice.
Speaker 1:Okay, so just right there everyone who is listening, right? He said I had to go and re-find everything, right? That tells you the quality of teaching, because some people would have been like guess what? They mowed Sucks to suck. I don't know what we're going to do. And you were out there probably until the sunset looking for what you needed to find.
Speaker 2:I actually was out there. Yeah, no, I can see it. I'm seeing it in my head, until it was dark.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Walking really fast and you know, I was stressed out about it and at a certain point, I mean I was totally stressed out about it. Actually, at a certain point I was like I've been walking around a beautiful field For work For three hours now. That's not the worst thing in the world, um, but it's. It is um, those things that happen when you know you've got something planned and then you, you, you leave and you've forgotten your handouts. Or you leave and you've forgotten the stuff you're getting, like I don't have my, my animal balloons. What am going to do? Those things are going to happen.
Speaker 2:You know there's going to be days that you're like I just I have class. You know, this weekend I'm teaching, you know, all day Saturday and all day Sunday, and I am not really feeling it, and that's understandable. Also, like I don't know, like I think about, like if I were to go to see a band, if I were to go see, like you know, kansas, you know play, oh, they're playing on a day that I'm teaching this year, crap, um, and they're, you know, maybe not having like the most super on day. I don't want them them to play and be like, well, you know, I'm not really feeling it today, so I'm not really going to try so hard. I want them to be like I'm going to play the best I can for where I'm at and for me as a teacher.
Speaker 2:I think the same thing is like students, especially the students that I have as an herbalist. They would be really understanding if I'm like, hey, I don't feel like. You know, I didn't sleep well last night. People are generally, you know, pretty nice and understanding about that, but I'd rather like just figure out how to do the best job that I can.
Speaker 2:You know, if I'm a teacher, my job is to offer classes and teach them as well as I'm able whenever I'm doing it, and not kind of be like, yeah, you know I'm not feeling great so I'm not going to try so hard yeah, no, I think that's a.
Speaker 1:I think that's an important thing because, um, I always say I, I don't. Students don't need to know anything wrong with me.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's it's nobody's business. I need to give them my A game every day, even if you know I'm pooping my pants in my face. You know I'm just like not on Right I because, or you know I didn't get sleep last night or my dog died or whatever, and I can say this is going on. But I also, a long time ago, I was like it doesn't matter, it matters to me, it doesn't matter to anyone else what's going on in my life, like they don't you know. And of course people care and people are, you know, with compassion.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there'd be plenty of empathy and all that kind of stuff but it's like I don't need to bring that into the mix, so I love that you. You pointed that out Like it's okay to be human, but also bringing your A game is what helps everyone, I think in the long run, or did I?
Speaker 2:completely. No, I mean, I love Kansas so most people know kansas. Dust in the wind. Carry on wayward, son. They're an amazing they have so many good songs an amazing prog band and there was a stage where the original singer, um, he just was, he didn't enjoy it anymore. Yeah, and I remember being at some shows where, like him, not enjoying it anymore was so completely evident, like he was not trying really hard, he didn't want to be there.
Speaker 1:And you get like mad, you're like dude.
Speaker 2:I want you to enjoy it too. I sort of like stopped going for a while you know, yeah, and the rest of the band. They were really into it and everything, but I was like I don't want to, like I mean, you know, like I felt bummed out. I'm sure he's so sick of playing carrie on wayward son right you know, very good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, like, because they, they play. How many times have they played that? Yeah, yeah, only wants to go and hear their favorite song played by someone who is playing it. Like, I'm sick of playing this. I'm like, why would I try to play this? Well for you, because it mostly about how sick I am at playing it. Like, we all want that and and I carry it and and it's. It has nothing to do with not being compassionate for yourself and where you're at, it's just sort of like, if you're going out there and and and teaching, um and it, someone might have invested a lot of like going to see an herbalist teach a class. It might be the first time that they've done that. Like, yeah, do your best for them. Um, they may have borrowed money to be there.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean like With if you're deciding to be a teacher, like always doing your best, I think is one of the Unnegotiables. It doesn't have to do with not being compassionate with yourself. You can totally be compassionate with yourself, but you can still do your best while you're doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had to learn a huge lesson teaching. I am very direct via email. I'm the worst emailer in the world, right? Someone will be like blah, blah, blah. I'm like yep, sounds good. And then they'd be like are you mad at me? What?
Speaker 2:do you.
Speaker 1:What do you want from that? You know, like I had to learn a whole other language of communicating because I was so direct. People would take it as I wasn't friendly or I wasn't nice or I didn't care. I just was like the answer is yes, so I had to like really teach myself. That was something with working online early on that I didn't get for a long time. It really took me way too long to be like girl. You need to be a little bit more friendly. People think you're sick in the mud.
Speaker 2:It's like oh okay, I don't have that problem. I have people ask me a simple question and I'll start writing like it was a dark and stormy night and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and there's parentheses and semicolons and ellipses and they're like is it okay?
Speaker 2:Like, like, if, will I be able to find you if I show up to the walk 10 minutes late? Like that I can be concise. Yeah, it takes. I mean, there's the knowledge going back to, to summarize, there's the knowledge of the material you're teaching, there is um figuring out the way that works for you to be able to teach it, and then there's just the practicalities of like the nuts and bolts of like how do you make this work? You know so because I do so many walks like parking lot size matters and I've been doing walks for for over 25 years and two years.
Speaker 1:I was going to say a lot. I've known about your walks for a long time.
Speaker 2:Two years ago and I do a lot of walks. I do a tons of open community classes. To me not everyone that is an herbalist. Some people get to a point where they're like I'm just going to teach herb students. I just do tons of open community classes because I enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Two years ago I found a place to do a walk and it's on the other side of the state from me. I went to a whole bunch of different places and I quizzed some people and um, small parking lot. And I was like I know how to get around, that I'll use google maps street view and I'll look across the road. Like directly across the road there's a street and you could. There's street parking on that street so you don't have to park in the small parking lot with the reserved for um, community gardeners signs, um, you can park in the street. And then the walk was starting and of course, like even you can park in the street. And then the walk was starting and of course, like, even though I had that in the email and even though it was like really explicit, like really explicit about where you can park, people were showing up and people parked in the reserve for gardener spots.
Speaker 1:Oh man, you got that blow back. It was fine, it was fine, because there were no.
Speaker 2:No one was out there gardening until we got back from the walk and we saw a bunch of people in the garden and I was like, oh no, they. They got there and all the things were. So when I um, yeah, I thought I found a work. Basically, what I'm saying is I thought I found a work. Basically, what I'm saying is I thought I found a workaround, and what I did not account for is human nature, is people pulled in, they saw a spot, they parked there, they were kind of like right on time and everything was starting. And because everything was starting, I needed to be focused on, like, my classes starting now and they decided not to go and park across the street and walk back. They just stayed there. And then when I got back at the end of the walk, at a certain point, someone who was not on the walk was like are you?
Speaker 2:jim. I was like oh, no, yeah, so that's him over there.
Speaker 1:He just left in the subaru find places that have enough parking for real, for real that's a really good, that's really good yes so we have kept you. I think this is one of the longest interviews I've ever done and I feel like I could talk to you for hours, but we should probably let you go because, uh, you probably have a life to get back to, but where can people find you?
Speaker 2:So my, oh, I was supposed to do that in the beginning, wasn't I?
Speaker 1:You referenced it a little bit, but let's make sure.
Speaker 2:Thank you for keeping me on track. Woohoo, my website is herbcraftorg and, oh, depending on when this comes out the new version, you can look at it on your phone. So much easier version might come out or be coming out soon. It will be coming out soon regardless, so that'll be really nice. And that site has all of a ton of free articles like lots of free articles, I think, hundreds of pages worth of free writings and plant monographs and things on treating back pain or sinusitis all that I put out there for people to have so that they can get an idea of, like the way I teach and where I'm coming from and whether that resonates with them and then hopefully send it for a class coming from and whether that resonates with them and then hopefully send up for a class. Right now, the in-person classes are mostly listed on herbcraftorg. And then there's another site, herbcraftpodiacom, so podia is p-o-d-i-a. Herbcraftpodiacom has all of the online stuff. There's a link from the herbcraftorg site, um, to get you there.
Speaker 1:Cool, we'll make sure we link in the in the description cool.
Speaker 2:I have lots of you know um two and a half three hour or day long classes. Um that I do you do a ton of classes I do all different kinds of structures for like everyone.
Speaker 1:I was looking at that. I was like that is so cool. I never.
Speaker 2:I just was like oh, I never thought of like I'm just like blown away I love the glasses um, and I've got a course and I go and teach weekends places. I'll be at a few different um herb conferences. Um, this year and every year usually I can make it to a few herb conferences. So all of the different places, like wherever, if you can come and see me teach somewhere, that would be great, say hi I I get nervous going to urb conferences there's a lot of people there well, it's like.
Speaker 1:So a few years I I taught at one um after 9 11 and we had family in new york and so I went and I taught and I was like I gotta go, like we got, like it was that weekend. I was like we've got people we, and they were not happy with me at all and it kind of my scared me so I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm like I get a little chicken shit about conferences. If I I'm invited to teach, I'll like go and teach, and then I leave, like, or I won't hang. I'm so bad. So I'm like I want to go sometime, just like and just go. But then I get nervous and I'm like well, I'll have to bring my own van because I don't want to like, I don't want to be in anyone's. It's so stupid, it's so ridiculous.
Speaker 2:The thing that I do, in case I do this with anyone here is I'll be at a conference and I'll start hearing other people be at the conference. I'll be like, oh, we should have lunch, and oh, we should have lunch. Like, oh, you know, let's get together like for lunch and then hang out. And then I realized that I've made plans with more people than there are lunches lunches like like.
Speaker 1:There's no way that I can actually fulfill all of the hangouts. You need to rent a restaurant have lunch with everyone.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that can. That's one of the things that I have learned in terms of like sort of reeling myself in is like not to over promise, like what I can actually do, because I I really am genuinely enthusiastic, like you know, someone's like oh, I'm gonna be there. I'm like totally come and you know, have lunch. And then I realized like, oh, you know, I gotta be careful about doing that because I don't want anyone to feel like, oh, he said we do that and he totally failed.
Speaker 1:Um, it's more like yeah, I just get so shy and then people think I'm mean because I'll be like you're not really coming off as mean so it's funny I don't in this kind of situation, but I mean, I think the whole resting face was named after me because I'll just be like and people are like what's wrong with nothing? I'm just listening and they're like well, didn't sound like you liked my lecture and I was like no, no, I liked it I just sit there.
Speaker 1:So I've got. That's what I'm working on with the podcast and I'm working on that. I'm trying to be a better human being.
Speaker 2:Oh yay. But, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:My own emotional weirdness Sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so those websites are like the two websites. There's a ton of stuff on YouTube, you know.
Speaker 1:There's just there's lots of interviews with you out there. There there are people love interviews with you and I can see why as an interviewer. So, oh good, I think that's awesome. Thank you so much for being here that is so much better.
Speaker 2:If you're like, people love doing interviews with you, but I'm not sure if I get it.
Speaker 1:No, they do.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't be interviewed by everyone if they didn't I, yeah, I hello, I like people, I like talking with people, I like you know connections, you know I like making connections and so well thank you for having me on I would love to have you on again sometime.
Speaker 1:Um, just uh, I know you're busy, so I will be emailing you um at some point. I love to do follow-up interviews with people.
Speaker 2:That's like our next season, I'm gonna follow up with yeah are you still repeating things like yeah, I don't do that anymore?
Speaker 1:no, we're just repeating guests people. But no, but cause I like to see where people are going, cause some of the first interviewers were students who have businesses, and so I'm going to go back and be like a year later, like how's it going? Like oh. I want to you know. I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:One of the things that's so cool about that is, um, one of the things you, if you're a teacher, one of the things eventually you learn about, is, like being aware of the power dynamic of, like teachers and students, and that is something absolutely be aware of.
Speaker 2:But then there's also, like sometimes I think about it, like my students are my employers.
Speaker 2:Like like the, the reason that I have so much gratitude for the people that come into class and the reason that when we were saying earlier that, even if I'm not feeling great, I just wanna do the absolute best that I can for them all the time is because they are the reason that I can do any of this.
Speaker 2:Like, if I offered classes and no one was showing up, I'd be like I guess this is not going to pan out Right. And for people to invest their, their, their money and their time and their attention, you know, to to be a part of whatever I do, whether it's in person, online like I'm so grateful because that allows me to do this. Like I'm able to share the learning and information and insights that I have because people are supporting me in doing that. So, like you know, when you're saying, like you know, you have students and then they branch out, and then they start doing stuff being able to like, shine attention back onto them. You, um, and, and what they're doing, like it feels so good and there's something really also awesome. Um, you see how you like this is never gonna end.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna keep going it's never gonna end is like people who are your students at a certain point, like I don't really feel like they're your students anymore. They're, you know, like they're your colleagues now. Yeah, they're. You know, like they're your colleagues now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know they're your peers or they're your inspiration to try something different, because you saw something that they did and you're like or you're paying them for a service.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so, so, so cool. When I think about, like, the people who have been in classes and see, like the things that they've gone off to do in different ways and you know and again you're not looking at like, oh, they're my student and they're able to do that because of me it's more like, oh, wow, look at the cool direction you know that they have gone off into. I'm so honored to have been a part of. You know that that little bit of there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, look at that gumption, you know like little bit of their. Yeah, like, look at that gumption, you know like, look at that, you know it's just, it's so inspiring, it's, and and I I really feel like everything in my life that I've been able to get is because they put their faith in me oh my gosh, I'm gonna start crying.
Speaker 2:That's another reason why I probably should have done't do the.
Speaker 1:I I'm a uh anyways, like you know, with all seriousness, like if someone we had 200 people enroll. In 1998 when I opened my doors, 200 people took a chance on some girl they met on a yahoo group, like with all seriousness, it was just like my husband's, like I'm not sure this is gonna work and I was like we're gonna do it and he's like okay, like because this was just so foreign, but like that, fed my children literally. Fed my children it literally.
Speaker 2:You know and then they stuck with me when I moved to Europe.
Speaker 1:Our students stuck with us. It didn't matter it, you know. So, yeah, I totally resonate with that. I I literally feel they've been the building block that I have built my foundation on herbally, and that connection is something that, um, I fight for them. You know like I, I fight for them. You know like I'll fight for you. You know I believe in you. I want you, I want you to exceed all expectation. I want you to shine bigger and better than you know Bevan Cohen. He went through one of our programs. I mean, he's trained with a million people and we just were interviewing him for the podcast for his new book, and I can't tell you how excited I am. I bought like five copies. I'm so excited for him, right, and it's not his first book, but it was just like it was the first one where I got to interview him about it, and so I'm like, oh, when this book comes out, I'm going to give it away to some students. You know like I was, I got all excited about it because I feel almost like a grandma.
Speaker 2:I know we're supposed to be ending and wrapping up but it was maybe two years ago, two or three years ago I was thinking like I never get to go to anyone's classes, like you know, like I'm always teaching, and then when I'm not teaching I mean I really do, because I teach a lot, I want to spend time with my family and all that.
Speaker 2:You just want to like go and be in a class. And, um, that day I get this email that Bevan Cohen is teaching at a library like 15 minutes away, and I look at my my calendar and it's like in the evening and I'm not doing anything and I'm like I'm just going and so I like got there and I go into the library and I sit down and he gets there and he's talking to people and he like looks up and sees me and then like, oh, he recognizes me and I'm to like wave, and he's like, oh, hi, and he goes back to doing his thing. And one of the things it was like that I appreciated so much it was really really great is like he just did his thing. Because one of the risks that I have if I show up on someone's class is, oh crap, I could inadvertently make them nervous, right yeah, I felt confident that he's like a really stellar teacher.
Speaker 2:He was going to be okay and that wouldn't be an issue for him. Um, or that they can like draw attention to me, and I'm not trying to pull attention away to his class and you know he's got like a, an overlapping group of people.
Speaker 2:You know to like the more um specific verbalism crowd that I tend to draw um, and so it was really great and no one in the place like recognized me and but he, his, his class was great and you know, like he was so solid and his teaching style is like really engaging and empowering and it was yeah, he he was. It was such a delight to go to his class and he got to hang out and blinker afterwards, uh, you know, um in the parking lot with him until he needed to like get going. I probably did the same thing to him that I'm doing to you right now, which is that's fine perpetuating the conversation but like, yeah, all props to bevin he.
Speaker 2:He is a stellar dude yeah, no, it's uh.
Speaker 1:I love, I'd love seeing all the advances in our craft and all of the new thought processes and different kinds of brains doing things. You know, it's not just like one person, one herbalist, rules them all or whatever right? You know, it's like there's lots and lots of like different voices out there from different cultures and different. You know, that was one of the things I loved when I could travel I mean, we did like 22 countries with our kids as part of their education but I could go anywhere in the world and connect with someone about herbs because we knew the Latin names and we could jive on that. You know, and it's just, I love how it's opening like that the world is opening and I'm so inspired by all of our students. You know, and just, I don't know, I don't even know where I'm going with this, but I'm just so grateful every single day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I'm starting to sound like a cheese ball. It's all because of you out there.
Speaker 2:Like we're we're we're gushing now because it's true, it's true.
Speaker 1:I mean my students do not realize that. I mean, when I started Heart of Herbs I think we made $13,000 that year as a couple and my husband was out of work. I mean, like you know, we, we, I wrote Heart of Herbs with a baby on my lap, breastfeeding. I mean like it was like a jump in the water and they were my water. They believed in me enough to give me a shot and I'm still here and I love it. You know, I just think it's something to be really grateful for. I think all small business and I do like to say like small business owners, because that's what we are we're business owners when push comes to shove and I think that we are the bedrock of our country. You know, like small business, you know we've got to support all of our small businesses Small, micro, like mini businesses.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's a few herbal billionaires out there. I don't know, it's not me. I've heard the rumors, guys, and they're fake. No Right, but you're not going to write a book and make a million dollars? Well, I'm not going to, but anyways I should probably let you get on with your life.
Speaker 2:And yeah, all right it was. I'm a total delight chatting with you, and if this can happen again sometime soon, I'm all about it oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1:I want to. I want to, uh, I want to talk to you about so many different subjects and I know our students are absolutely like adore you. So we have certain people that we suggest that they do follow up education with, or side by side education, or check out this perspective. And and you're always on the top of our list, because everything I see from you is so impressive the responses around COVID were so impressive and compassionate and I thought I had always been a fan and read articles and stuff. But that really cemented to me that you were different and that I understood your walk, and I don't always understand people's walks. So you know, I don't. I'm, you know, a barefoot girl 90% of the time. I don't always understand your walk, but I'll let you go and thank your family for sharing you for so long with us. We really appreciate it and I hope you have a wonderful day. And where can we find you again?
Speaker 2:Herbcraftorg is the best place to go to. All right, start looking for stuff that I do yeah, it's all there people.
Speaker 1:So definitely herbcraftorg and that's h-e-r-b-c-r-a-f-torg. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day.
